The Art Of Fermentation, Sandor Katz Interview (Transcript)

What is one food that can improve your immunity, increase your nutrient intake, strengthen your immune system, taste delicious, and connect you to traditions of our ancestors? If you haven’t yet been turned on to how fermented foods are a key essential to good health and delicious dining, this podcast interview is for you.

We are honored that Sandor Ellix Katz, author of several books, including “The Art of Fermentation”, is the studio expert for this podcast, and will educate us about fermented foods.

In this interview, expert Sandor Katz discusses how fermented foods . . .

• • help us improve our immunity;
  • enhance the nutrition of our food;
  • detoxify our foods;
  • strengthen our immune system;
  • why fermented foods are safer than raw foods;
  • how to find raw fermented foods;
  • why you should ferment at home; and
  • why you need more bacteria.

He does all of this in a 32-minute interview. So buckle up and hold on. We are going on a great ride full of good content!

This post is the complete transcription. You can scroll down to see the subject headings too.

You can listen to the podcast here.

Introduction to the Podcast:

Frances: Namaste everybody. You are listening to the Namaste Nutritionist podcast where we drop love nuggets and wisdom bombs. I am Frances, founder of Namaste Nutritionist and I want to ask you are you receiving the Namaste Nutritionist newsletters yet because if you are not, you can sign up free of charge and receive my nutrition manifesto. Just hop on over to namastenutritionist.com, sign up and start receiving the high content, high value wisdom bombs on nutrition, life and happiness.

Now today, we are going to talk to a very special expert, Sandor Ellix Katz. We will cover how fermented foods and microbes help us improve our immunity, enhance the nutrition of our food, detoxify our foods and strengthen our immune system. In addition, Sandor covers why fermented foods are safer than raw foods, how to find non-pasteurized fermented foods and why you should ferment at home and then also why you need more bacteria. He does all of this in a 32-minute interview. So buckle up and hold on. We are going on a great ride full of good content.

Sandor Katz’s Bio:

Now let me tell you about Sandor. Sandor Katz is a fermentation revivalist. His book Wild Fermentation which news recalled the Fermenting bible and hundreds of fermentation workshops that he’s taught around North America and beyond have helped catalyze a broad revival of the fermentation arts. He is a self taught experimentalist who lives in Rural Tennessee and the New York Times calls him one of the unlikely rock stars of the American Food Scene.

According to the Times, Mr. Katz has become for fermentation what Timothy Leary was for Psychedelic drugs. A charismatic, conscious raising thinker and advocate who wants people to see the world in a new way. His book The Art or his latest book rather, it’s called the Art of Fermentation and it received a James Beard award and you can find the podcast for this episode and others at www.namastenutritionist.com. So let’s dive in. Good morning and welcome Sandor. We are so happy that you could do this interview today. How are you doing?

Welcome, and Sandor’s Background

Sandor: I am doing great. Thanks so much for having me on your show.

Frances: It’s my pleasure. So for some people who may not be very familiar with you, why don’t you tell us your story of who you are and how you got so into fermentation that led you down this wonderful path of writing wonderfully transformative books?

Sandor: Well, let’s see. I grew up in New York City and one of my very favorite foods as a kid was pickles, fermented cucumbers with garlic and Dill what many people might know as Garlic Dills. In New York City, they are known as sour pickles but I just always loved them. I was drawn to this flavor of Lactic acid although nobody in my family was making them and we certainly weren’t talking about fermentation but between those and the other kinds of fermented foods that we in my family which included yogurt, cheese, bread, vinegar, once in a while, we’d have Sauerkraut.

You know, I was familiar with fermentation and I was drawn to some of the flavors of fermentation. In my 20s, I started following the macrobiotic diet and macrobiotics places a certain amount of emphasis on the digestive stimulation that you get from pickles and other life culture foods. So you know, I started thinking about and really noticing you know, how certain fermented foods literally got my digestive juices flowing and really aided in digestion but really the thing that got me to start fermenting food myself and that’s what really sort of led to my obsession with it is that I moved from New York City to Rural Tennessee and I started keeping a garden and all of the cabbage was ready at the same time which came as something of a surprise to me.

So I learned how to make Sauerkraut and then you know, I started playing around with making yogurt and making different kinds of fruit wines and Sourdough baking and then I got involved in making Miso. So you know, I just kind of got obsessed with fermentation and started figuring out how to ferment everything that I could and then you know, ten years later, I wrote – first I self-published a little zine, then I wrote a book Wild Fermentation that led me into lots of teaching and eventually I wrote another book which was published just about a year ago called The Art of Fermentation and I also have a website which is www.wildfermentation.com and you know, I think of myself as a fermentation educator. Sometimes, I call myself a fermentation revivalist.

History of Fermentation in Our Culture

Frances: That is an apt description, a revivalist because this is an area that has – it’s sort of lost some traction among popular culture in the United States. There are a lot of people that don’t really understand fermentation. So I am really excited that you are here to help transform and revive what fermentation is so we can appreciate it more and hopefully incorporate more of it into our lives.

Sandor: Well great. You know, I mean, I like to point out to people that you know, fermentation has actually always been popular and never waned for a moment in popularity. Just because the products of fermentation are some of our most basic staple foods and some of our most desired delicacies. You know, I am thinking of bread, I am thinking of cheese, I am thinking of cured meats, I am thinking of condiments that people love to put on the food, I am thinking of coffee, chocolate, yogurt.

I mean there are just so many different types of fermented foods that everybody loves. Everybody eats fermented foods every day whether they are thinking about fermentation or not. You know, what I would say happened is that, during the 20^th century, all aspects of food production were disappearing from you know people’s households and communities. That means, gardens and the tradition of local food self sufficiency and you know, we sort of as a society, we bought into the idea that efficient centralized production was the best way to go and freeing up people’s time from having to be involved in food production.

So fermentation, like agriculture, really sort of disappeared from the fabric of life to faraway places, where people were still eating products of fermentation but they had nothing to do with it. This process coincided with what I would describe as the oral bacteria and our growing suspicion of bacteria and you know, the idea that bacteria in general are bad. So along with these practices disappearing from our lives and people not learning how to do them, all this mystification developed where because people were so afraid of bacteria, they imagined that there is something really difficult and sort of technically demanding about these processes. You know, how to make sauerkraut, how to make yogurt, how do I know that I am getting the right bacteria growing, how can I be sure that I am not going to get something growing that’s going to make me sick or make my children sick or send somebody to the hospital or kill someone.

So many people in our time approached the question of fermentation from a place of fear, and so really I think what I do is demystify helping people understand that you know, these are ancient rituals that people have been doing in their very low tech kitchens for thousands of years and you know, in fact they are strategies for safety as much as anything else.

Our Co-Evolution with Bacteria

Frances: Yeah that’s a great area to highlight because a lot of people do worry that somehow fermenting food is less safe because there isn’t that control. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that because I really appreciate your position on sort of co-evolving with bacteria and you really seem to share a lot of respect and even reverence for bacteria and microbes because of their place in our food and in our deep history, in our ancestry. So do you want to talk a little bit more about why it’s actually really safe to ferment food and maybe why it’s even essential?

Sandor: Yeah sure. Well, I mean first of all, I would just point out that there is certain inevitability to microbial change to our food. You know, anything that is not extremely dry or in a freezer, microorganisms are going to grow on it and it’s just a biological reality. We live in a microbial world. All life is descending from bacteria and no form of life has ever lived without bacteria and you know, co-existence with bacteria really is a biological imperative and you know, the cells of our bodies are outnumbered 10 to 1 by bacteria that we are host to and actually these bacteria give us a huge amount of our functionality.

How Fermentation Works

So you know, we need bacteria and guess what, cabbages rely on bacteria for certain amount of their functionality and so do carrots and all of the plants and animals that constitute our food are covered with microorganisms and you know, if we leave a slab of meat just sitting on the counter at room temperature, it will rot, it will spoil and those will be microbial transformations. If we add curing salts and dry it out a little bit and give it an appropriate temperature, well, then guess what, we have salami or ham.

So it’s all about I would describe the practice of fermentation as subtle manipulations of environmental conditions that encourage the growth of certain types of organisms that are present rather than certain other types of organisms that are also present. On every food that we could eat, there is a multitude of different types of organizations. If you leave half of the head of cabbage out on your kitchen counter exposed to the air, it’s pretty predictable what will happen. Molds will grow on it and if it’s hot enough, humid enough, if you leave it long enough, those molds could literally decompose ahead of cabbage, until there is no resemblance whatsoever to delicious, tangy, crunchy sauerkraut and the difference is the difference of environmental manipulation. The process for making sauerkraut is to get some of the juice out of the cabbages and then get the vegetables submerged under their own juices.

When it’s under a liquid, then there is no longer a free flow of oxygen and so the molds which require oxygen can’t grow then what will grow instead are Lactic acid bacteria. This developed over millennia before anyone was identifying specific types of microorganisms. People were observing that under different storage conditions, food would age differently and this is really the story of fermentation. Now, you know, in the realm of fermented vegetables, what I can say to calm people’s fears about bad bacteria is that, according to the United States Department of Agriculture, the number of documented cases of food poisoning from fermented vegetables is zero since the beginning of record keeping.

Frances: That’s just incredible.

Fermented Veggies are Fundamentally Safer Than Raw Veggies

Sandor: So this is just an intrinsically safe food. This suggests that when you ferment vegetables, you make them safer than they were a raw because every year we hear about people getting sick from raw vegetables. You know, Spinach, Lettuce, Tomatoes, Cantaloupe, you know it’s one thing after another and really, there always is the possibility of incidental contamination but if you took some vegetables that had been subjected to some incidental contamination and you chopped them up and salted them and squeezed them a little bit to make them nice and juicy and then stuff them into a jar or a crock and got them submerged under their own juices, well in that environment, the indigenous Lactic acid bacteria that’s present on all raw plant material on the earth becomes dominant and as they acidify the environment even if there were some kind of incidental contaminant, all of the organisms that we associate with food poisoning can’t survive in acidic environment.

So as the environment acidifies even if there were some kind of contaminating organisms, they would be destroyed by the acidification.

Frances: So that’s a really wonderful way to talk about it and in your books, you really dive into how to ferment and you dive into these subjects a little bit more. So I just want to encourage the audience to check out the books so that you can explore how to do this yourself and how practical and how exciting the process can actually become but for people who maybe aren’t into the Do-It-Yourself thing, do you have any brands that you’d recommend for really good unpasteurized, fermented food such as an unpasteurized kombucha or an unpasteurized sauerkraut because you know with commercialization, a lot of our foods to make them shelf stable are pasteurized and it’s really hard to tell the difference.

Finding Good Fermented Foods In Your Store

Sandor: Sure, well let me tell you that the fermented – the fermented products that are not pasteurizing themselves tell you in their packaging.

Frances: Like it says raw?

Sandor: For fermented vegetables, I mean they are just, they are small local and regional brands are popping up all over the United States and Canada. So, when I hear about them or people write to me, I list them on my website. So if you look on my website www.wildfermentation.com and you click on fermentation links, under fermented vegetables, I have a sublisting of small producers of fermented vegetables and all those people are doing raw unpasteurized products.

Frances: Great. I will include a link to that in the Show Notes for this for people.

Kombucha

Sandor: Okay. That would be great. With Kombucha, I don’t really have specific brands to recommend but if you just read the packaging, all the ones with live bacteria are promoting that on their labels. They are staying with their raw, they are unpasteurized. So I would just be an informed consumer and really read the labels. Most of the yogurt in the United States has live bacterial cultures in it but really, I would want to encourage anyone to just – to give it a try. I mean, it’s really, really simple. You could spend 15 minutes chopping up a few pounds of cabbages and salting them and stuffing them in a jar and you could enjoy delicious, probiotic sauerkraut for weeks from your 15 minutes of chopping.

So I mean, even though it involves a little bit of time and really with sauerkraut, it could just be a few days that you have to wait for it to ferment. The actual work involved is just a few minutes.

Frances: Yeah it is really easy and it’s a lot of fun. Actually, it’s fun to experiment with everything and like you are saying about having your cabbage already at the same time, last year, we had 93 heads of cabbage pop up in our garden that were harvestable. They were at the right size and so we did a lot of experimenting with different types of sauerkraut and we tried your method of – that you suggested in your wild fermentation where you talk about leaving it open to air and just scooping off the top that it gets kind of moldy and then we tried the method where you are like, you have a water weight pressing the kraut under the water and it was interesting because at certain points, we found that we left it too long. So you have to learn where the right phase of fermentation is for your taste buds so that it tastes just right and then you stick it in the fridge.

Why You Should Experiment with Fermentation

Sandor: And I think that that’s one of the exciting things about doing it yourself. You know, if you go to the store, what you are going to buy, even if you are buying a beautiful local brand made from local cabbages is somebody else’s idea of when it tastes mature and you know, if there is one thing I’ve learned about sharing – about sauerkraut from sharing sauerkraut with thousands of people over the last decade, you know, it’s that different people like it different ways that I’ve had people taste my six-week old sauerkraut that I thought was just like so, so mature and you know, tell me that oh, that tastes like coleslaw because where they come from, it’s not mature until it’s even sort of further progressed than that and then I’ve had people taste my three-day old sauerkraut and tell me that it’s the best sauerkraut they ever had in their lives and that they thought they didn’t like sauerkraut.

So one of the beautiful things about making it yourself is you can incorporate different kinds of vegetables, different kinds of seasonings, you can ferment it for a shorter time for something more mild, longer time for something that’s more tart, sour, acidic, but you know, you have a certain amount of control over the process and you can make it the way you like it. It might take a little bit of experimentation to learn what that means but I mean, I really recommend that people making sauerkraut for the first time, just do it in a jar on the kitchen counter and taste it every few days and just get a sense of what is the spectrum of flavors that can be created and where do you follow along that spectrum because certainly I can’t tell you that. No book can tell you that, no website can tell you that. That is experiential education.

How Fermentation Enhances Nutrition & Detoxifies Plants:

Frances: Wonderful and you talked about fermentation, some of the benefits in addition to what we have talked about being that it enhances nutrition, it can enhance digestion and it can detoxify the plant. So…..

Sandor: Yeah, fermentation has a lot of nutritional advantages. I would say that the live bacteria themselves, the probiotics would be the most profound benefit of those fermented foods that have intact live cultures but there are many other benefits. For one thing, fermentation can be thought of as predigestion. So dense compound nutrients in whatever the food that you are eating get broken down before you eat them, which makes many nutrients more bioavailable. Certain compounds found in certain plants have toxicities associated with them, generally subtle toxicities but some of them are dramatic but many of these toxic compounds found in different plants can be broken down by fermentation similarly. Then the fermentation actually augments certain nutrients, and B Vitamins are generally higher in fermented foods than in the same food before it’s been fermented.

Then there are these sorts of unique micronutrients, basically metabolic bi-products and specific organisms growing on specific foods and some of these bi-products, these micronutrients have extraordinary benefits to humans that ingest them.

Like the fermented vegetables have these compounds called isothiocyanates which are considered to be anticarcinogenic. The Japanese soy ferment, Natto, has a compound that’s gotten a lot of attention called Nattokinase, that can help regulate blood clotting and has a lot of interesting therapeutic applications.

Eat Fermented Foods As A Strategy For Well-Being

So you know, there are many different benefits to eating fermented foods, but I would say the most dramatic ones would be the replenishing and diversifying your gut bacteria which is just so incredibly important given the fact that we all have contact everyday with chemical compounds that are basically assaulting our gut bacteria and then just…

Frances: Like chlorine in our water?

Sandor: Chlorine in our water, antibiotic compounds that are accumulating in our water, antibiotic residues and meat and milk, antibacterial cleansing products and the residue of them. So you know, we are living in the midst of the oral bacteria is really a chemical warfare that affects us all every day and so it’s become much more important at our historical moment than it’s ever been in the past for people to consciously replenish and diversify these bacterial populations release as a strategy for health and wellbeing.

Fermented foods support your immune system and brain chemistry

Frances: Right, and for increasing your immune system. Bacteria has such a huge impact in our immunity and especially gut bacteria. Healthy bacteria lend to the health of our gut and really enhance our immune system.

Sandor: Yeah I mean absolutely, a lot of what we would think of as our immune system is actually the gut bacteria. I mean, there is a lot of new information demonstrating that when you have an infection anywhere in your body, the immune response is mediated by bacteria in your gut and gut bacteria mediate many other aspects of our functionality. Brain chemistry is mediated in the ways that we don’t fully understand by gut bacteria. Gut bacteria….

Frances: Like Serotonin production which is a feel good hormone.

Sandor: Exactly, exactly. Yeah there has been some really exciting research but you know, basically if we all – I mean, most people who were brought up in the United States in the second half of the 20^th century and the beginning of the 21^st century have really been indoctrinated to think about bacteria as dangerous enemies but it’s becoming increasingly clear that we can’t possibly function in this world without bacteria and we are quite dependent on them. That’s not denying the idea that there are bacteria that can make us sick but really our best defense against bacteria that can make us sick is a thriving population of bacteria in our gut because that’s what constitutes our immune system. That’s what – you know, it’s the 99.9% of bacteria that we can co-exist with perfectly well that protect us from the relatively small range of bacteria that have the potential to make us sick but every time we wipe those out, we are making ourselves more vulnerable to disease rather than less vulnerable to disease.

Helpful Bacteria, Harmful Bacteria & Hygiene

Frances: And it’s interesting because the practices are changing little bit more in the mainstream. For example, I am sure you are familiar. I think you might have touched upon this in your book too is the American Medical Association is now recommending that we don’t advocate for the indiscriminate use of antibacterial products anymore and so the practices around being more discriminate with how often we are cleansing even in hospitals is really changing. Even in hospitals, it’s recommend that we don’t cleanse quite so much. It’s not to say that we abandon all practices for monitoring our cleanliness and a safe environment for patients, but being too clean has actually had some really negative consequences for people who have compromised immune systems.

Sandor: Yeah well, I mean I think we have to sort of separate some of the issues. So I mean, yes there is this general idea that we are too clean and there is this, the hygiene hypothesis is an idea to explain the sort of sudden spike in childhood allergies and asthma and basically the ideas like that kids need to roll around the dirt more, they need to like touch animals and other children more just to get a wider range of bacterial exposure. Now in terms of overuse of antibacterial cleansing products, I mean I would really distinguish between cleansing and sterilizing and I think that you could not possibly wash your hands too many times but soap is adequate. Like you don’t need chemical compounds that wipe out a broad range of bacteria and that we need to reserve that for very specialized applications such as surgeons about to go into the operating room.

Frances: Right absolutely important.

Sandor: But I think it’s really important to sort of like – it is very possible to have great hygiene without ever touching antibacterial cleansing products. Simple soap and water is great hygiene. It’s good to do that after you go to the toilet and also before we cook. You know, that is hygiene and there is no reason to cut corners on that but you don’t need chemical compounds to have a perfect hygiene.

Probiotics & Prebiotics

Frances: So I want you to shift a little bit with the few minutes that we have left. You were talking about probiotics being what lend themselves to good gut health and being what we get from a lot of our fermented foods. Now what about prebiotics? For people who don’t know, prebiotics are referred to as sort of nourishment for bacteria or microbes. What are your thoughts about prebiotics and its effect on our microbiota or for people who don’t know what I am saying like the population of microbes that live on us and inside of us pretty much everywhere?

Sandor: I think that it’s an important concept and basically prebiotics are fibrous foods that take the entire length of our digestive tract to breakdown and so because they breakdown slowly over the long length of our digestive tract. They nourish our gut bacteria along that whole way. People who eat diets that are very low in fibrous foods ultimately are starving the bacteria further down the digestive tract. So I think prebiotic foods are great. I think you know, most of us could stand to benefit from eating diets higher in fiber. I think it’s a good thing.

Your Stomach & H. Pylori Bacteria

Frances: Great. Yes, I did too. Okay and then if you have just a moment to touch upon H. Pylori. I thought you had a very interesting point in your book about H. Pylori being bacteria that we’ve actually co-evolved with over a very long time and that it’s now in danger of so to speak being eradicated and that might have some unintended negative consequences. Do you want to just elaborate on what you mean and what we don’t know about H. Pylori?

Sandor: Yeah sure. I mean to me, the story of H. Pylori is – it’s a cautionary tale about projecting concepts like good and bad on to bacteria. So you know, H. Pylori has been thought of in recent decades as a bad bacteria. It was associated with stomach ulcers. There was all sorts of medications that sort of target that bacteria and you know, the idea being that by sort of killing it off in a person’s digestive tract, we are protecting them from ulcers and now, it actually has been eliminated from a vast portion of the population but now, there is a sort of reassessment of H. Pylori and there is some investigators who are theorizing that H. Pylori might also have a role that helps our bodies balancing between energy use in the moment and energy storage for the future. So, you know, according to these theories, the rapid rise of obesity in the United States and in many other places might be correlated with wiping out this bacteria which previously had been understood to be a bad bacteria. But you know, I think that the larger point is that we don’t know enough about how bacteria work in our bodies to definitely understand which bacteria are bad and which bacteria are good and we really have only the crudest understanding. Our understanding is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago, but really, until very recently, bacteria were just thought to be bad and you know, it turns out that bacteria are incredibly important. We couldn’t possibly survive without them and so we have to be very careful about projecting our values such as good and bad upon them.

Frances: Well said. Well said. Well, Sandor, it has been absolutely a wonderful pleasure to talk to you as you can imagine that there is just so much that the community wants to learn about this topic and you know, so many areas where we can dive deeper to have even better appreciation. So I am just grateful that you took the time for us today and it’s on behalf of everyone in the Namaste Nutritionist community. So I would just like to – if you would share with us about the books that you’ve written and where people can learn more about you and about your wonderful work.

Sandor: Well great. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for having me on the show today. The time has passed so quickly, but I hope we have shared some good information that your listeners will benefit from. My books, I have three books out. The first one published in 2003 as “Wild Fermentation”, the second one which was published in 2006 is called “The Revolution Will Not Be Microwaved: Inside America’s Underground Food Movements” and my most recent book is “The Art of Fermentation” published about a year ago. I have a website www.wildfermentation.com. All of the books are available on my website as well as in local book stores and wherever you like to buy books and also, I teach a lot. I travel around. I have a kitchen here in Tennessee where I teach, I do a fair amount of traveling. I am actually about to go up to the Northeast next week. So on my website, you can find out about my workshops, you can find out about my books, you can find all sorts of fermentation-related resources.

Frances: And you just recently came to Seattle and that’s where I got to connect with you in one of your workshops?

Sandor: Right, right. I was just – I was out in the Northwest just a few weeks ago and had a great visit out there. So yeah, I do a fair amount of traveling and get to different parts of the US and occasionally beyond. So yeah, so please come check out my workshops and my website is www.wildfermentation.com.

Frances: Yeah and you are just – Sandor, I just have to say again, you are doing a great job. I think that your books are absolutely wonderful. I like your video too. I picked upon your videos in the library which was one of your like almost two–hour workshops, learned a ton from you and I just think it’s wonderful because you are helping pass on a tradition that isn’t commonly passed on anymore even though as you said, we are eating fermented food every day. It’s not a common practice that grandmothers and mothers are still passing that practice on to their next generation. So I think that you are a revivalist. As you said, you are really helping the rest of us regain some of these ancient skills. I am really, really grateful for that.

Sandor: Well thank you so much Frances.

Frances: All right. Take care and we will talk to you soon.

Sandor: Okay bye, bye.

Frances: So what did you think of that? Sandor has so much insight to offer on this topic and we just couldn’t possibly cover enough of it in 30 minutes. For you to gain a lot, lot more, I highly recommend adding his book, “The Art of Fermentation” to your library even if you never plan to ferment a thing. This book is a bible for appreciating just how much fermentation and microbes intersect with our lives and impact our well being and you can find the blog post and the ShowNotes for this interview at www.namastenutritionist.com/artoffermentationinterview.

So you know, I am really, really passionate about the microbiome and about gut health and I love microbiology because it impacts our health so much. It’s just fascinating and I’ve conducted several other interviews on this topic and everything touches the angle of microbiology and microbes in a whole different way. So I will have links to those interviews and then also to Sandor Katz’s resources at the link I mentioned and I will say it again. It’s namastenutritionist.comartoffermentationinterview and you can reasonably expect that I will continue bringing new information about how microbes impact our immunity and our health. There is a lot to discover. It’s fascinating. It can affect your weight, it can affect your immune system. It can affect cancer and our brain chemistry. There is just so much to learn.

So it’s really, really fun to appreciate. I hope you feel the same way but if you don’t no worries. We cover lots of Health and Wellbeing topics here at Namaste Nutritionist and as always, I am really glad you are here. I am just so passionate about Health and Wellbeing and I love, love, love that I have you to share it with. I don’t want to keep it to myself. It’s so much more fun to share. So thank you for letting me share a piece of your precious time to share these exciting topics with you and thanks for listening and I will catch you next time. Have a wonderful day. Be sure to go to https://namastenutritionist.com/artoffermentationinterview to catch all the awesome ShowNotes.

Okay until next time, Namaste my friends. Bye bye!